Worked proactive level three crime. We would get 'quick time' intel that wasn't relevant to our remit, but maybe needed a threat to life response or a crime in action interdiction. The people we trusted to take those jobs off us were few and far between, not just because the skills and assets necessary were in short supply (and availability limited), but because we had to trust that we could quickly pass the job and then forget it... it would be dealt with promptly, properly and wouldn't come back to bite us in the arse around disclosure and/or court. We ended up having those working relationships with people who almost exclusively worked proactively.
Proactive bread and butter was difficult real time decision making, without the luxury of endless risk assessment and 'reputational harm' meetings. Our command structure was flatter, and they were confident around making quick (but well reasoned and recorded) decisions. We were all over disclosure and law/procedure because that was what the defence would go for when presented with a 'bang to rights' case. 'Lawfully audacious' anyone?
Not slagging off Reactive units completely, but it did seem they were not quite so sharp and much more risk averse. Much better at golf however.
It does seem that the majority of Police work reactively these days, and I think that does encourage a certain mindset.
There's definitely an article to be had in the cultural differences between proactive and reactive policing. I always found working an MIR / HOLMES case quite rigid and formal, but that doesn't detract from its necessity. I also remember, from the DSU world, the problems with getting the right people to work on actionable intelligence in fast-time.
I feel your pain. Regarding the pro/reactive balance, I remember an Area Crime Squad job with a probe in a W11 jewellers. Aggravated burglars and robbers (and murderers) chatting, setting up jobs, and handing over identifiable property. We lived off that for about 6 months, picking them off as they did jobs (with a PII as to why we were behind them), but reached the point where we (and/or the MPS) just couldn't service the amount of actionable Intel while managing the risk. With more proactive capability the Met could have easily kept that going for another 6-9 months, or at least until they started topping each other to find the grass (only joking...).
1 Area Central, they kept us when they got rid of Areas. Later at Jubilee Hse. Did some bits for DI Tom M. at the funny firm. I'm sure I would have noticed your watch(es), having been wooed by a Submariner in the 80s.
A concise illustration of a problem for CID and it’s major investigations, but also most other police activities. Arguably the defence should be given the right to defend the innocent and should be given the benefit of any doubt. Couple this with an overworked, understaffed and cautious CPS it’s surprising anything gets to court let alone a conviction. This results in more criticism of policing and more targets and priorities.....
Whilst I’m glad I’m retired, I do worry about the future of policing.
With regard to Decision Logs, most of the writing in the death in custody,, and discharge of police firearms/tasers, was done by me and my Det. Sgt. colleagues at CIB2/3. Albeit the majority were made by the (generally very good) SIOs, oftentimes they would rely on us DSs to fill in the blanks, I.e. identification of potential alternative decisions and why they were not made. This was possible because of the close working relationships that developed between Sergeants and guvnors, each cod trust the other to make the right calls in the Decision Log. Good to get the perspective of another pair of eyes.. In an office of 8 x DS , 2 x DIs, 1 x DSuupt. The range and depth of experience was almost palpable. Whoever decided that Henditz (Hendon Police Training School) was to close is responsible for a growing loss of ability and experience.
SIOs still subcontract elements of their decision-logs to case officers Simon, although on proactive jobs and crimes in action (especially)I've seen them scribbling away for hours. I think court proceedings are only one element now for police - internal and external reviews and public inquiries play "shoulda coulda woulda" far more often than they did before. And everyone's looking for a scalp.
A brilliant account! As you know, most decent detectives have sadly disappeared with their valuable experience. Having worked in various ‘crime-teams’ and on several occasions with the Met, the C of L and other forces on several major investigations I can only echo your views . . . I’m fast approaching my retirement and looking forward to finding a career that appreciates common sense and sound decision making and not worrying about being pulled in by PSD . . .
Great read. Having spent years on a MIT as a DC and the last few yrs as a civvy investigator, i’ve had the privilege of working with some great SIO’s as you describe. Waiting for a posting now as a civilian disclosure advisor. A role created after one of the inquiry’s into Police cases failing at court due to poor disclosure. (R v Allen for example). BTW, did Clive Timmons ever show you the Red devil tattoo on his a*se??
Disclosure - I can disclose I once saw a member of the (then) IPCC put a *brain* from somebody who died during a POLACC / POLCOL on a disclosure schedule as 'unused material'.
I'm talking over 20 years ago, Dom, although it seems like yesterday.. I'm sure the rise of the M & S Superintendent, combined with the increased vilification of the job by everybody, plus recruits who didn't realise they would have to work nights, make being a proper copper a nightmare. The change since my retirement in 2007 has been astonishing, I'm so glad I'm not in now.
You show the harsh truth which noone outside those who have walked the walk understand or care about or want to care about or understand. Which makes me feel less like I'm the only raging about the state of policing, the police, media, and government. Which makes me feel better. Your also one few things that makes me smile now when I see the latest inbox arrival. Its almost subversive and that's good. I was never comfortable around detectives and my opinions on SO13 SMT and destruction of MPSB are unprintable, I've little affection for Box either given what they did to help destroy SB, and got away with and get away with. Fight the good fight. X
Worked proactive level three crime. We would get 'quick time' intel that wasn't relevant to our remit, but maybe needed a threat to life response or a crime in action interdiction. The people we trusted to take those jobs off us were few and far between, not just because the skills and assets necessary were in short supply (and availability limited), but because we had to trust that we could quickly pass the job and then forget it... it would be dealt with promptly, properly and wouldn't come back to bite us in the arse around disclosure and/or court. We ended up having those working relationships with people who almost exclusively worked proactively.
Proactive bread and butter was difficult real time decision making, without the luxury of endless risk assessment and 'reputational harm' meetings. Our command structure was flatter, and they were confident around making quick (but well reasoned and recorded) decisions. We were all over disclosure and law/procedure because that was what the defence would go for when presented with a 'bang to rights' case. 'Lawfully audacious' anyone?
Not slagging off Reactive units completely, but it did seem they were not quite so sharp and much more risk averse. Much better at golf however.
It does seem that the majority of Police work reactively these days, and I think that does encourage a certain mindset.
There's definitely an article to be had in the cultural differences between proactive and reactive policing. I always found working an MIR / HOLMES case quite rigid and formal, but that doesn't detract from its necessity. I also remember, from the DSU world, the problems with getting the right people to work on actionable intelligence in fast-time.
I feel your pain. Regarding the pro/reactive balance, I remember an Area Crime Squad job with a probe in a W11 jewellers. Aggravated burglars and robbers (and murderers) chatting, setting up jobs, and handing over identifiable property. We lived off that for about 6 months, picking them off as they did jobs (with a PII as to why we were behind them), but reached the point where we (and/or the MPS) just couldn't service the amount of actionable Intel while managing the risk. With more proactive capability the Met could have easily kept that going for another 6-9 months, or at least until they started topping each other to find the grass (only joking...).
5 or 6 Area? We might know each other.
1 Area Central, they kept us when they got rid of Areas. Later at Jubilee Hse. Did some bits for DI Tom M. at the funny firm. I'm sure I would have noticed your watch(es), having been wooed by a Submariner in the 80s.
A concise illustration of a problem for CID and it’s major investigations, but also most other police activities. Arguably the defence should be given the right to defend the innocent and should be given the benefit of any doubt. Couple this with an overworked, understaffed and cautious CPS it’s surprising anything gets to court let alone a conviction. This results in more criticism of policing and more targets and priorities.....
Whilst I’m glad I’m retired, I do worry about the future of policing.
Thanks for another good read!
With regard to Decision Logs, most of the writing in the death in custody,, and discharge of police firearms/tasers, was done by me and my Det. Sgt. colleagues at CIB2/3. Albeit the majority were made by the (generally very good) SIOs, oftentimes they would rely on us DSs to fill in the blanks, I.e. identification of potential alternative decisions and why they were not made. This was possible because of the close working relationships that developed between Sergeants and guvnors, each cod trust the other to make the right calls in the Decision Log. Good to get the perspective of another pair of eyes.. In an office of 8 x DS , 2 x DIs, 1 x DSuupt. The range and depth of experience was almost palpable. Whoever decided that Henditz (Hendon Police Training School) was to close is responsible for a growing loss of ability and experience.
SIOs still subcontract elements of their decision-logs to case officers Simon, although on proactive jobs and crimes in action (especially)I've seen them scribbling away for hours. I think court proceedings are only one element now for police - internal and external reviews and public inquiries play "shoulda coulda woulda" far more often than they did before. And everyone's looking for a scalp.
Another great read, Dom. Keep 'em coming!
Thanks!
A brilliant account! As you know, most decent detectives have sadly disappeared with their valuable experience. Having worked in various ‘crime-teams’ and on several occasions with the Met, the C of L and other forces on several major investigations I can only echo your views . . . I’m fast approaching my retirement and looking forward to finding a career that appreciates common sense and sound decision making and not worrying about being pulled in by PSD . . .
Great read. Having spent years on a MIT as a DC and the last few yrs as a civvy investigator, i’ve had the privilege of working with some great SIO’s as you describe. Waiting for a posting now as a civilian disclosure advisor. A role created after one of the inquiry’s into Police cases failing at court due to poor disclosure. (R v Allen for example). BTW, did Clive Timmons ever show you the Red devil tattoo on his a*se??
Disclosure - I can disclose I once saw a member of the (then) IPCC put a *brain* from somebody who died during a POLACC / POLCOL on a disclosure schedule as 'unused material'.
scary, isn't it?
are you sure he wasn’t referring to his own 🤣🤣
Happily not!
I'm talking over 20 years ago, Dom, although it seems like yesterday.. I'm sure the rise of the M & S Superintendent, combined with the increased vilification of the job by everybody, plus recruits who didn't realise they would have to work nights, make being a proper copper a nightmare. The change since my retirement in 2007 has been astonishing, I'm so glad I'm not in now.
You show the harsh truth which noone outside those who have walked the walk understand or care about or want to care about or understand. Which makes me feel less like I'm the only raging about the state of policing, the police, media, and government. Which makes me feel better. Your also one few things that makes me smile now when I see the latest inbox arrival. Its almost subversive and that's good. I was never comfortable around detectives and my opinions on SO13 SMT and destruction of MPSB are unprintable, I've little affection for Box either given what they did to help destroy SB, and got away with and get away with. Fight the good fight. X