I might, although I didn't want to make what was already a lengthy piece just about the Fed (an organisation which, until the pension debacle, had a negligible impact on many officers' daily lives). I might write a separate article about the whole 2010+ Winsor / May / PF nastiness another time.
That would be a good article. And lo is May the one of those MPs hiding details of their second/third jobs that most probably had them contorting to hide a conflict of interest...
As ever an excellent read, some chuckles, some issues relative to me, but the one thar that stuck out is the PF v Trade Union debate.
I retired in 2009 after 32.5 years as a Bobby, I rejoined the following day as a 'civvie'' or Police Staff.
In fairness I was anticipating that my union membership, just might carry a little more clout, but when the wheel came off for me after my 14th year as Police Staff, do you know what?
They were bloody useless.
A senior Union rep told me I COULD make a grievance report, but to be honest it wouldn't go anywhere, he then dropped off the radar, only reappearing when I wrote a report saying how I felt abandoned by him and the Union, then he disappeared again.
You are correct that it is very unlikely that the British Police will ever strike, but it's not impossible that day may come sometime in the future.
Very astute summary of the way it was, is, and probably will be. I was an AFO in the days before ARVs, when there probably only one AFO on duty when an incident requiring an armed response occurred, maybe Late Turn of a weekend. You would book out a S&W model 10. .38 revolver and 12 bullets, then go to deal with the incident as the single 'shot', iagainst all of the training, hoping like f#ck that it would be a false alarm! Then came the Cherry Groce shooting, and two others, I forget the details, where the AFOs were all charged with murder/manslaughter, and all 'gripped the rail' at the Old Bailey. They were all acquitted, and subsequently found to have acted correctly, but as someone who was prosecuted for driving WDC on duty on the whim of some junior clerk at the CPS, I experienced the humiliation of appearing at the same court into which I was routinely prosecuting prisoners. The case was dismissed, but the stress caused me to start smoking again for a while. Goodness knows what terrors those officers suffered, knowing that they could be facing a life sentence for just going to work and doing their duty. After the third instance, I did hand in my firearms ticket (they were in those days). The enjoyment of a day at the range every three months was eclipsed by the potential for incarceration, not to mention the increased possibility of being shot oneself. (No ballistic vests then).
I later worked as a DS at CIB2, pre DPS, investigating deaths in custody and police discharge of firearms, inter alia. There was always a level of sympathy shown by the SIOs, and us DSs doing the leg work, but it was always very tense when SO19 AFOs and SFOs (Specialist FOs) were involved. Their Fed Reps were very suspicious of our motives, and very aggressive. If there was any suggestion that a mistake had been made, or a procedure not followed, even if no-one had been shot, the whole team would clam up, and refuse to be interviewed, instead submitting opaque duty statements. This made the investigation much harder, and meant we had to look more deeply into the matter, rather than adopting the more empathetic approach that we would have preferred, which of course raised suspicion on both sides. They were too worried about retaining their posting and firearms ticket. With regard to strike action, all strikes directly the public, and I wouldn't support it anywhere. I personally would never strike, it offends all of my personal and political beliefs. That said, as a lifelong Conservative supporter, I have been appalled by the treatment of the police by successive Tory governments. Theresa May was a dreadful Home Secretary, and a worse PM, and the damage she has done to pay and conditions, pensions and police practice, is legion. And do not get me started on direct entry guvnor! I'll stop now, sorry for renting.
Hello Mister D! I remember the days as a very young SB officer, attending the scene of a shooting, when the PCA appointed investigators from another force talked about demanding SO19 officers being breathalysed! I'm not sure which part of the Road Traffic Act covers that, by the way.
I was one of those dinosaur fed reps come barrack room lawyers. I once made the ,'reason not to unionise' speech which was almost word for word as you detail above. I made it to the Branch Board who at that time were minded to push for unionisation. I spent much time representing officers at Tin Tack also, I find it interesting that on one side there is a push for 'independent' investigation of the police but when it comes to discipline there is a push to get rid of independence as an independent system is not imposing harsh enough sanctions. At the same time in parliament our representatives are subject to short suspensions from their work place for offences which were to have been committed by humble constables would have resulted in permanent barring from their profession.
Remembering me can be a bit marmite dependent on if you required representation, which hopefully went well or if you were DPS investigating my friend which hopefully went badly!
A very interesting piece, and I do enjoy your writing btw. The glaring omission would be that the Police Federation was taken to a tribunal by over 9000 serving officers for direct discrimination and victimisation. They won that case in early June 2023 and the pf has until Tuesday next week to appeal.
The estimates of possible remedy are all above £50 million and the pf are also facing claims related to their potential data loss (when they were hacked).
If you look at the comments on the site GlassDoor for ex pf employees, you will often see the words ‘toxic’ and ‘bullying’. The term ‘free lunch’ is frequently used too. This is not irony, everyone at pf HQ gets a free lunch everyday. Interestingly, the pf has (in the last week or two) appointed a CEO, who was previously a consultant.
It looks as though the pf gravy train is likely to hit the buffers in the next year or two after consistently telling lies to the members they were paid to represent. I don’t use that word casually btw, the judgement is absolutely damning.
Thanks Mike. I deliberately didn't go down the Fed tribunal rabbit hole for the benefit of non-Job readers, but you make a good point. I've also tried to be fair - I was genuinely looked after at one point by the PF when nobody else would.
Fair enough, it is pretty niche and has been largely ignored in the media. Private Eye have featured the story which often leads to mainstream interest.
I don’t think anyone disputes the selfless unpaid work that plenty of local reps do. It is the undemocratic structure with the honorarium, and extra payments for full time officials that grates. It is a closed shop, something that was abandoned in the 70’s.
There was a vote for industrial rights (featured in the judgement) which was overwhelmingly won, and then the goalposts moved.
I agree that the right to strike is pointless if impossible to use, however, not all action involves strikes. Even discussing such things can be considered fomenting dissent.
The conditions of 1919 where Police slipped into poverty and went on strike may seem impossible, but the ghost of Sgt Robert Tissyman may return.
You could add a bit about the recent employment tribunal judgement whereby PFEW were in bed with HMG and did their colleagues legs. https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/mr-l-broadbent-and-others-v-police-federation-of-england-and-wales-3207780-slash-2020-and-others
I might, although I didn't want to make what was already a lengthy piece just about the Fed (an organisation which, until the pension debacle, had a negligible impact on many officers' daily lives). I might write a separate article about the whole 2010+ Winsor / May / PF nastiness another time.
That would be a good article. And lo is May the one of those MPs hiding details of their second/third jobs that most probably had them contorting to hide a conflict of interest...
As ever an excellent read, some chuckles, some issues relative to me, but the one thar that stuck out is the PF v Trade Union debate.
I retired in 2009 after 32.5 years as a Bobby, I rejoined the following day as a 'civvie'' or Police Staff.
In fairness I was anticipating that my union membership, just might carry a little more clout, but when the wheel came off for me after my 14th year as Police Staff, do you know what?
They were bloody useless.
A senior Union rep told me I COULD make a grievance report, but to be honest it wouldn't go anywhere, he then dropped off the radar, only reappearing when I wrote a report saying how I felt abandoned by him and the Union, then he disappeared again.
You are correct that it is very unlikely that the British Police will ever strike, but it's not impossible that day may come sometime in the future.
Very astute summary of the way it was, is, and probably will be. I was an AFO in the days before ARVs, when there probably only one AFO on duty when an incident requiring an armed response occurred, maybe Late Turn of a weekend. You would book out a S&W model 10. .38 revolver and 12 bullets, then go to deal with the incident as the single 'shot', iagainst all of the training, hoping like f#ck that it would be a false alarm! Then came the Cherry Groce shooting, and two others, I forget the details, where the AFOs were all charged with murder/manslaughter, and all 'gripped the rail' at the Old Bailey. They were all acquitted, and subsequently found to have acted correctly, but as someone who was prosecuted for driving WDC on duty on the whim of some junior clerk at the CPS, I experienced the humiliation of appearing at the same court into which I was routinely prosecuting prisoners. The case was dismissed, but the stress caused me to start smoking again for a while. Goodness knows what terrors those officers suffered, knowing that they could be facing a life sentence for just going to work and doing their duty. After the third instance, I did hand in my firearms ticket (they were in those days). The enjoyment of a day at the range every three months was eclipsed by the potential for incarceration, not to mention the increased possibility of being shot oneself. (No ballistic vests then).
I later worked as a DS at CIB2, pre DPS, investigating deaths in custody and police discharge of firearms, inter alia. There was always a level of sympathy shown by the SIOs, and us DSs doing the leg work, but it was always very tense when SO19 AFOs and SFOs (Specialist FOs) were involved. Their Fed Reps were very suspicious of our motives, and very aggressive. If there was any suggestion that a mistake had been made, or a procedure not followed, even if no-one had been shot, the whole team would clam up, and refuse to be interviewed, instead submitting opaque duty statements. This made the investigation much harder, and meant we had to look more deeply into the matter, rather than adopting the more empathetic approach that we would have preferred, which of course raised suspicion on both sides. They were too worried about retaining their posting and firearms ticket. With regard to strike action, all strikes directly the public, and I wouldn't support it anywhere. I personally would never strike, it offends all of my personal and political beliefs. That said, as a lifelong Conservative supporter, I have been appalled by the treatment of the police by successive Tory governments. Theresa May was a dreadful Home Secretary, and a worse PM, and the damage she has done to pay and conditions, pensions and police practice, is legion. And do not get me started on direct entry guvnor! I'll stop now, sorry for renting.
Hello Mister D! I remember the days as a very young SB officer, attending the scene of a shooting, when the PCA appointed investigators from another force talked about demanding SO19 officers being breathalysed! I'm not sure which part of the Road Traffic Act covers that, by the way.
I was one of those dinosaur fed reps come barrack room lawyers. I once made the ,'reason not to unionise' speech which was almost word for word as you detail above. I made it to the Branch Board who at that time were minded to push for unionisation. I spent much time representing officers at Tin Tack also, I find it interesting that on one side there is a push for 'independent' investigation of the police but when it comes to discipline there is a push to get rid of independence as an independent system is not imposing harsh enough sanctions. At the same time in parliament our representatives are subject to short suspensions from their work place for offences which were to have been committed by humble constables would have resulted in permanent barring from their profession.
I actually remember you Dave, I hope you're well.
Remembering me can be a bit marmite dependent on if you required representation, which hopefully went well or if you were DPS investigating my friend which hopefully went badly!
No I remember you from a brief sojourn at BH
Bravo 3.
When it was a Cavalier with a sun roof. I remember that.
A very interesting piece, and I do enjoy your writing btw. The glaring omission would be that the Police Federation was taken to a tribunal by over 9000 serving officers for direct discrimination and victimisation. They won that case in early June 2023 and the pf has until Tuesday next week to appeal.
The estimates of possible remedy are all above £50 million and the pf are also facing claims related to their potential data loss (when they were hacked).
If you look at the comments on the site GlassDoor for ex pf employees, you will often see the words ‘toxic’ and ‘bullying’. The term ‘free lunch’ is frequently used too. This is not irony, everyone at pf HQ gets a free lunch everyday. Interestingly, the pf has (in the last week or two) appointed a CEO, who was previously a consultant.
It looks as though the pf gravy train is likely to hit the buffers in the next year or two after consistently telling lies to the members they were paid to represent. I don’t use that word casually btw, the judgement is absolutely damning.
Who did the snake in your story represent btw?
Link to the judgement:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/648c474b103ca6001303a0a8/Mr_L_Broadbent___Others_-v-_Police_Federation_of_England_and_Wales_-_3207780_2020___Others_-_Judgment.pdf
Thanks Mike. I deliberately didn't go down the Fed tribunal rabbit hole for the benefit of non-Job readers, but you make a good point. I've also tried to be fair - I was genuinely looked after at one point by the PF when nobody else would.
Fair enough, it is pretty niche and has been largely ignored in the media. Private Eye have featured the story which often leads to mainstream interest.
I don’t think anyone disputes the selfless unpaid work that plenty of local reps do. It is the undemocratic structure with the honorarium, and extra payments for full time officials that grates. It is a closed shop, something that was abandoned in the 70’s.
There was a vote for industrial rights (featured in the judgement) which was overwhelmingly won, and then the goalposts moved.
I agree that the right to strike is pointless if impossible to use, however, not all action involves strikes. Even discussing such things can be considered fomenting dissent.
The conditions of 1919 where Police slipped into poverty and went on strike may seem impossible, but the ghost of Sgt Robert Tissyman may return.
😅😅
Dom …its a balloon asking to be popped. When i joined the pay was shite ( why did i
Do o it …. Any of us did) (It was a crazy bonkersks ) place that w e all enjoyed. The only problem is that the the ‘crazy’ sh😰T has become even crazsy