In recent days there have a good number of public comments similar to this by two academics elsewhere: ‘Large numbers of participants have been arrested by the police during the course of the 2024 disturbances’ and the number is reported regularly as more court cases appear.
Sticking to the history of public order policing having a 'third force' has been examined once before.
Partly due to the furore after a March 1968 anti-Vietnam War protest (os the then US Embassy, Grosvenor Square) which became a riot (unsure if legally it was do declared) with mounted police charges and 200 arrested. Then the British Army taking responsibility for policing in August 1969 in Northern Ireland, after communal rioting, bombing of installations, gunfire and the collapse of the RUC.
In 1970 Sir Robert Mark, MPS Commissioner and Army General Anthony Deane-Drummond were appointed and visited a number of countries in Europe, Hong Kong, Japan, Canada and the USA. A report was made to the government and in 1975 a public version was published by RUSI (Whitehall "think tank"). I have a copy and it has many wise words - not a recommendation for a 'third force'.
Others, some polemical, have written on the issues and at various times limited debates occurred, more in private than public e.g. after the ACPO Public Order Manual was published around 1988.
Now back to today.
Post-event investigation is now – it appears – preferred. I expect the numbers identified are NOT that great, certainly they were not in the 2011 riots. If public order policing is to be reviewed the options for the police should be reviewed too.
Is the 'standing army' or a 'third force' going to change the manner of the policing response, which principally is containment and rarely dispersal?
My view from my experience of public order policing is that there won't be a British third force any time soon. I joined in 1977 and we had the Notting Hill Carnival riots, Lewisham in 1977 which was, I believe, the first time riot shields were used on the streets of London. The 1980 Bristol riot was the precursor to the 1980's wave of unrest that swept the inner cities. In every case the response of the police and Home office was a gradual/reluctant adoption of protective equipment and more forceful tactics.
Throughout that time I only remember the Met as supplying aid and rarely receiving it. Where do we go now? The current government has been thrown a hospital pass with a police force that is struggling in terms of capacity and capability to deal with just about anything beyond everyday policing. I think May was just about shrewd enough to realize that she would be long gone from power when her cuts took effect but beyond an obvious dislike of the police I could not discern an obvious plan for policing or the CJS other than 'cut baby,cut'
I see a further development of the mutual aid system with forces supplying aid on a regional/national basis. This may require officers spending a lot of time being billeted in budget hotels. Money will somehow be found for equipment and training, although never enough. I also believe tactics will have to change. Going toe to toe with rioters is fraught with danger for all concerned although I am more concerned with officer safety than the well being of the rioters. At some time we will have to get away from the ridiculous notion that it is somehow 'unfair' for the police to have protective equipment. As a bare minimum the use of the larger pepper spray containers must be authorised followed by development of stand-off tactics. Most continental police forces use stand off tactics without the world ceasing to spin, I just thank that on the continent there is more acceptance of such tactics from both sides of the political spectrum.
There have been the usual cries of 'call in the army', well as the army would be hard pressed to fill Wembley stadium at the moment it's a non starter, also what can the army do that the police cannot do in a public order situation? I'll discount the fantasy answers of opening fire on a crowd and I believe the public would be slightly surprised if they knew how few soldiers would be available.
Finally I believe that the current system of governance and organisation of the police needs to change. The current 43 forces need to be reduced, the system of PCC's should be abolished. I actually favour a 'National,Regional, Local' model of policing which could bring economies of scale. I would also add that at my time at the Home Office a national force for infrastructure protection was being considered. This would merge CNC, BTP etc and would be responsible for airports etc. This was never progressed.
Great article Dom. I was level 2 late 80s early 90s when there seemed to be one demo or another every week. I was on a level 3 seriel the day of the ‘family day out’ T square poll tax riot. Our little group were up against the national gallery, pushed back by the baying mob only to be rescued by some baton wielding TSG troops who saved our bacon. The Police undoubtedly lost the streets for a while that day.
My money is on a greater focus on PSU training with maybe a bit more cash for forces? As you allude too, it is a bit like the late 1970’s with lots of disgruntled protesters which could get out of hand. The early 1980’’s saw many forces sending thousands of officers to quell mass protests, Toxteth, Birmingham, Bristol and the miners dispute.
Dom- enjoyable read. My last posting before I retired in 2020 was the Sgt at NPoCC- the central hub for Mutual Aid for England and Wales, but we also worked with PSNI and Police Scotland as well as overseas territories (and we had deals with MOD Police, Military Police, Border Force to name a few). Much of what Starmer said already exists- there is a national public order commitment from every force (from memory 299 PSU’s), and we regularly use it. It is quite agile, with local agreements, and regional commitments first. The biggest barrier was that it is the force that has to request aide as legally they are responsible for policing their geographic area. It is also much wider than public order- we had over 200 distinct police roles defined for mutual aid where the training was national, but we also received requests for roles that weren’t.
I know one of the ACC’s I worked for was exploring this idea back in 2018- looking at how likely we were needing the large Public Order commitments and whether an independent public order unit was likely to be achievable or worthwhile.
Would the British public order unit be like the French Compangie Republicaines de Securite (CRS)? Designed to harass and annoy all demonstrators, from the local anti-car parking enthusiasts to the extreme lunatic fringes intent on the overthrow of the democratically elected government? And would anyone volunteer, knowing that they would be required to spend their summers acting at lifeguards at such appealing tourist destinations as Cleethorpes and Clacton?
Great article as always. Having been an Inspector at Hounslow POTC glad you enjoyed the training . Having been on the TSG when they are deployed correctly it can stop things escalating very quickly! But how many forces outside the big 3 in England & Wales can realistically give up that level of staff even on a regional basis. So we come back to budget versus sound bites?
Typo, you went level 3, 2, 3. Should be Level 1. Which I was in Northern Ireland for over 20 years. In my honest opinion, it was the best job in the RUC(GC)/PSNI
Needs a wee edit…. You’ve gone from L3 to L2, and got lost on the way to L1.
Also … TAU spend a lot of their time searching. I’d guess the TSG do this too. They are usually first pick for the tastier bits of football deployments.
They’re definitely not sat twiddling thumbs waiting for disorder.
I agree, the TSG are always busy. The problem is, once you give away capability to the centre you won't get it back. No searching, I'm afraid, we've sent them all to (insert nearest panic here).
Understood. Maybe Kier's 'standing army' is just a sound bite to make it sound like he is doing something about it. When the dust settles it will be quietly forgotten and we will go back to business as usual, and the police will become the 'enemy' again.
In recent days there have a good number of public comments similar to this by two academics elsewhere: ‘Large numbers of participants have been arrested by the police during the course of the 2024 disturbances’ and the number is reported regularly as more court cases appear.
Going back fifty years to April 1974 @ Southall, London the MPS following a protest, involving the NF being present, arrested 343 or 700 people in a crowd estimated as 3000 – matched one for one by the MPS. The vast majority were local residents; 90% guilty pleas initially and later 70%. Obviously no CCTV etc. Some information (incl. how many arrested): https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/what-anti-nazi-league-and-rock-against-racism-teach-us-about-how-to-defeat-fascists/? and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Blair_Peach
Sticking to the history of public order policing having a 'third force' has been examined once before.
Partly due to the furore after a March 1968 anti-Vietnam War protest (os the then US Embassy, Grosvenor Square) which became a riot (unsure if legally it was do declared) with mounted police charges and 200 arrested. Then the British Army taking responsibility for policing in August 1969 in Northern Ireland, after communal rioting, bombing of installations, gunfire and the collapse of the RUC.
In 1970 Sir Robert Mark, MPS Commissioner and Army General Anthony Deane-Drummond were appointed and visited a number of countries in Europe, Hong Kong, Japan, Canada and the USA. A report was made to the government and in 1975 a public version was published by RUSI (Whitehall "think tank"). I have a copy and it has many wise words - not a recommendation for a 'third force'.
Others, some polemical, have written on the issues and at various times limited debates occurred, more in private than public e.g. after the ACPO Public Order Manual was published around 1988.
Now back to today.
Post-event investigation is now – it appears – preferred. I expect the numbers identified are NOT that great, certainly they were not in the 2011 riots. If public order policing is to be reviewed the options for the police should be reviewed too.
Is the 'standing army' or a 'third force' going to change the manner of the policing response, which principally is containment and rarely dispersal?
My view from my experience of public order policing is that there won't be a British third force any time soon. I joined in 1977 and we had the Notting Hill Carnival riots, Lewisham in 1977 which was, I believe, the first time riot shields were used on the streets of London. The 1980 Bristol riot was the precursor to the 1980's wave of unrest that swept the inner cities. In every case the response of the police and Home office was a gradual/reluctant adoption of protective equipment and more forceful tactics.
Throughout that time I only remember the Met as supplying aid and rarely receiving it. Where do we go now? The current government has been thrown a hospital pass with a police force that is struggling in terms of capacity and capability to deal with just about anything beyond everyday policing. I think May was just about shrewd enough to realize that she would be long gone from power when her cuts took effect but beyond an obvious dislike of the police I could not discern an obvious plan for policing or the CJS other than 'cut baby,cut'
I see a further development of the mutual aid system with forces supplying aid on a regional/national basis. This may require officers spending a lot of time being billeted in budget hotels. Money will somehow be found for equipment and training, although never enough. I also believe tactics will have to change. Going toe to toe with rioters is fraught with danger for all concerned although I am more concerned with officer safety than the well being of the rioters. At some time we will have to get away from the ridiculous notion that it is somehow 'unfair' for the police to have protective equipment. As a bare minimum the use of the larger pepper spray containers must be authorised followed by development of stand-off tactics. Most continental police forces use stand off tactics without the world ceasing to spin, I just thank that on the continent there is more acceptance of such tactics from both sides of the political spectrum.
There have been the usual cries of 'call in the army', well as the army would be hard pressed to fill Wembley stadium at the moment it's a non starter, also what can the army do that the police cannot do in a public order situation? I'll discount the fantasy answers of opening fire on a crowd and I believe the public would be slightly surprised if they knew how few soldiers would be available.
Finally I believe that the current system of governance and organisation of the police needs to change. The current 43 forces need to be reduced, the system of PCC's should be abolished. I actually favour a 'National,Regional, Local' model of policing which could bring economies of scale. I would also add that at my time at the Home Office a national force for infrastructure protection was being considered. This would merge CNC, BTP etc and would be responsible for airports etc. This was never progressed.
Great article Dom. I was level 2 late 80s early 90s when there seemed to be one demo or another every week. I was on a level 3 seriel the day of the ‘family day out’ T square poll tax riot. Our little group were up against the national gallery, pushed back by the baying mob only to be rescued by some baton wielding TSG troops who saved our bacon. The Police undoubtedly lost the streets for a while that day.
Thought provoking article, thank you Dom.
My money is on a greater focus on PSU training with maybe a bit more cash for forces? As you allude too, it is a bit like the late 1970’s with lots of disgruntled protesters which could get out of hand. The early 1980’’s saw many forces sending thousands of officers to quell mass protests, Toxteth, Birmingham, Bristol and the miners dispute.
History repeating itself….
Dom- enjoyable read. My last posting before I retired in 2020 was the Sgt at NPoCC- the central hub for Mutual Aid for England and Wales, but we also worked with PSNI and Police Scotland as well as overseas territories (and we had deals with MOD Police, Military Police, Border Force to name a few). Much of what Starmer said already exists- there is a national public order commitment from every force (from memory 299 PSU’s), and we regularly use it. It is quite agile, with local agreements, and regional commitments first. The biggest barrier was that it is the force that has to request aide as legally they are responsible for policing their geographic area. It is also much wider than public order- we had over 200 distinct police roles defined for mutual aid where the training was national, but we also received requests for roles that weren’t.
I know one of the ACC’s I worked for was exploring this idea back in 2018- looking at how likely we were needing the large Public Order commitments and whether an independent public order unit was likely to be achievable or worthwhile.
Would the British public order unit be like the French Compangie Republicaines de Securite (CRS)? Designed to harass and annoy all demonstrators, from the local anti-car parking enthusiasts to the extreme lunatic fringes intent on the overthrow of the democratically elected government? And would anyone volunteer, knowing that they would be required to spend their summers acting at lifeguards at such appealing tourist destinations as Cleethorpes and Clacton?
Great article as always. Having been an Inspector at Hounslow POTC glad you enjoyed the training . Having been on the TSG when they are deployed correctly it can stop things escalating very quickly! But how many forces outside the big 3 in England & Wales can realistically give up that level of staff even on a regional basis. So we come back to budget versus sound bites?
Typo, you went level 3, 2, 3. Should be Level 1. Which I was in Northern Ireland for over 20 years. In my honest opinion, it was the best job in the RUC(GC)/PSNI
I suspect the PSNI model of all officers having a certain level of upgraded competence in public order is heading this way.
I think this is more by necessity than design as the PSNI are approximately 1500-2000 officers short of what was agreed by Patton
Needs a wee edit…. You’ve gone from L3 to L2, and got lost on the way to L1.
Also … TAU spend a lot of their time searching. I’d guess the TSG do this too. They are usually first pick for the tastier bits of football deployments.
They’re definitely not sat twiddling thumbs waiting for disorder.
I agree, the TSG are always busy. The problem is, once you give away capability to the centre you won't get it back. No searching, I'm afraid, we've sent them all to (insert nearest panic here).
Another excellent piece Dominic, just sort out your Level 3's and Level 1's.
Edited, Roger, just not on the email sadly
Understood. Maybe Kier's 'standing army' is just a sound bite to make it sound like he is doing something about it. When the dust settles it will be quietly forgotten and we will go back to business as usual, and the police will become the 'enemy' again.
I think the key thing a lot of people are missing is that Keir never said it was a permanent arrangement…
I think the ‘standing army’ - who have done perhaps a lot of sitting down, may be stood down until the next outbreak of unrest.
I think Keir pulled it out of his fundament on the spur of the moment, to be honest.